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posted by b1515

So I am starting another cycle right now just curious as to what others are taking. Have fun with this and post your cycle, goals to achieve and any other interesting facts.

I am taking as follows:
EOD: 75mg Tren
2xWeekly: Test 100mg each injection
EAC: every day (ten days on five days off)
PCT: HCG

Want to Gain a little more size and then it is going to be dieting and cardio for a while. Currently at 270 lbs and 14% body fat.

posted by howlowcanigo

Damn whiz quizes natural is so much more difficult.

posted by Dex

huh?

270lbs and you're taking 200mg of test a week?? im so confused by both comments...

posted by estray

Thats what i was thinking too. :aah:

posted by Storm

that cycle makes no sense.

posted by b1515

What would be an acceptqble amount of test. I was advised by a friend as to take the test for my sanity while on the tren. Please advise me if you think i should alter at all. Greatly appreciate it thank you.

posted by estray

Im concerned that you dont know the real reason why you take test with tren. Youre plenty big enough to be using gear but are you knowledgable enough is the question. Steroids are not to be taken lightly and if this is your first cycle, tren is prolly not a good idea.

So whats your cycle history?

posted by b1515

This is my 2nd cycle. The reason for taking the test was that i was told by a friend who is knowledgeable that the test would help keep my sanity.( ie not to possibly get depressed while on the tren)
My first cycle was:
Sustanon 250
500mg/wk for 10 weeks
So any advice further more on this would be greatly appreciated. I know tren is not a beginner steroid. It is readily availabe to me and relatively inexpensive Also what is your understanding as to why test is taken with tren. Please reply and thank you for any information.

posted by Dex

dont discuss prices.

how tall are you?

posted by regino007

Edit Your Post!!!!!

posted by b1515

I am 6ft 5in.

posted by regino007

Test should always be the base of your cycle. 500mg was a good dose on your Sus. Keep your test at that. Tren at ED 75-100mg for 8-10wk is where you should be with that.

BTW, what kind of test you using?

posted by regino007

Tren will make you sweat like a pig and the combo of the ECA may make it worse. Tren and ECA both will up your blood pressure. Be prepared for that. hCG, do a little more research on this compound. I don't recommend using this for PCT but rather some Nolva and/or Clomid.
hCG should be used during your cycle to keep the "boys" active. Tren will shut you down within 4-6 wks, depending on your chemistry. I know I had some Cialis around along with hCG when I either use Tren or Deca........got it have it to make the Old lady happy.
Hope that helps and good luck.

posted by b1515

regino007
Thank you i appreciate the advise. I am monitering my blood pressure on a daily basis. On the hcg you said to take it throughout the cycle. to keep my boys active. But if used as pct isn's it going to have the same effects.Or is it wiser to use while on cycle. Also what would be sufficient (ie 500-1000iu every 4-5 days, more or less frequent and dosage amount) Also for the pct i would like to use nolvadex over clomid.(yeah or na ) Also for this being only my second cycle is 75-100mg ed to much.( FYI was going to take only 75-100mg EOD) Using test Enanthate (again on this a recommended dosage) Again thank you for the advise and greatly appreciate it.

posted by Dex

clomid is better alone than nolva for pct but when used together they work as a good team. i use clomid and HCG for my pct

posted by estray

HCG is suppressive and should not be used during PCT. However, some use HCG after the cycle is over but before pct, but thats the old, outdated protocol. The new protocol, and IMO a much more logical approach, is to take 250-500iu 2x a week. Why worry about bringin the boys out of their shell at the end when you can keep em from ever going in. HCG is suppressive and should never be used

posted by estray

Swale's HCG advice

Swale's HCG advice

by swale (MD / hrt specailist). originally posted at steroidology

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn't enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn't mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERMs at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a "bridge". Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can't "fool" the body? it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground?and we don?t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other

JC: Dr. John has updated the original paper you published. Here it is:

My New HCG Protocol Paper
This paper is about to be published in The American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine 2004 Clinical Updates:

AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL

By John Crisler, DO

In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:

Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG—a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog—will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.

So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let’s delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable
testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly “cycle” compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time—without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)—approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.

But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).

I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.

Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn’t concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.

While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more “traditional” TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.

Copyright John Crisler, DO 2004. This article may, in its entirety or in part, be reprinted and republished without permission, provided that credit is given to its author, with copyright notice and 2. www.AllThingsMale.com clearly displayed as source. Written permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses.

posted by Dex

i dont think HCG works during a cycle. it doesnt make alot of sense to me but i dont have any scientific research backing up either theroy....wether it does or doesnt. i go with whats worked for me and HCG and clomid for PCT works.

posted by estray

Check out the article before your last post. Swales is pretty much the foremost authority on HCG.

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